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Taurine Daclatasvir and Treatment Failure 8 years 5 months ago #10953
So as you probably know I'm keeping an eye on everyone's progress and for the vast majority (as in 96.2% to be exact) we see HCV RNA <LLOQ (ie <12, <15, <25 or <30 depending on the test) by 4 weeks. As we know daclatasvir levels go up if you take inhibitors of CYP3A4 and down if you take inducers. To date we have only see issues with inhibitors like grapefruit, grapes, paw paw, star fruit and pomegranate causing toxic daclatasvir levels. Bad for patient, ok for SVR. Today I got a shock. A patient with F0-1 GT3a and an initial viral load of 3,100,000 came back with a 4 week viral load of 935. This was previously unheard of. So we started looking why. First the source of the medications (FixHepC) so I know they passed testing, but I can also see the results for the patients immediately before and after which are all as expected - <15 or UND everywhere. Rule out dodgy batch of drugs as the cause. Next her medications. All green light on the interactions checker: www.hep-druginteractions.org/checker Now her supplement - a body building energy potion taken daily and containing:
In plain english this says taurine increases the levels of the enzyme CYP3A4 that removes daclatasvir from your system - in other words it's like you're taking a 1/2 dose, or maybe even a 1/4 dose. Now taurine may not be the only cause each and every "... extract" will contain dozens of chemicals, all of which could induce or inhibit CYP3A4 So here is my advice: Do not take random supplements in the hope they may help. They may, they may not - nobody knows and these drugs work without special care. If you want to take extras Vit D and Vit B12 have evidence and there is a long discussion on the forums about many others. And remember that Red Bull, V, Monster and other "Energy" drinks all contain taurine Here's more about taurine if you're interested www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nut...taurine/faq-20058177 YMMV | |
Taurine Daclatasvir and Treatment Failure 8 years 5 months ago #11008
Very interesting. It's great to see information of possible interactions, both positive and negative, come to light. We've all been sailing in mostly dark, uncharted waters without navigation lights and this is invaluable for future patients. Personally I have continued to take Jeunesse AM/PM Essentials which I started several months before treatment and made a noticeable improvement to my feeling of well being, although I take less than 1/2 the recommended dose (it's quite expensive). It contains small amounts of taurine and green tea extract among dozens of other things. I was DET <15 at 4 weeks. M 61yo HCV+ ~ 30 yrs Gt1a F2 VL 223,000 ALT 54 AST 42 Tx start Sof/Dac 17Dec15. SVR4 at 7Apr16 ALT 22 AST 22 SVR12 at 9Jun16 ALT 23 AST 25 Melbourne, Australia | |
Taurine Daclatasvir and Treatment Failure 8 years 5 months ago #11014
Green tea extract is very bad for the liver. A Perth man was recently at death's door from it and he needed a new liver. They had to give him one that was infected with HBV. I suppose in very small amounts it might be OK but I wouldn't try it. G1 58yo F1 54,000 viral load Relapser 2003/4 Sof/Dac started 21/9/2015 | |
Taurine Daclatasvir and Treatment Failure 8 years 5 months ago #11022
This is the story you mentioned - www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-14/man-faced...loss-product/7162378 Green tea extract was mentioned as the probable cause although doctors were uncertain. I would guess it was present in large quantities in the "weight-loss product purchased online". With a little more searching I found vastly conflicting reports, from a girl who got very sick from 3 cups of green tea a day: www.techtimes.com/articles/88334/2015092...-of-liver-damage.htm to a report that it helps fatty liver: www.liversupport.com/green-tea-promotes-a-lean-liver/ M 61yo HCV+ ~ 30 yrs Gt1a F2 VL 223,000 ALT 54 AST 42 Tx start Sof/Dac 17Dec15. SVR4 at 7Apr16 ALT 22 AST 22 SVR12 at 9Jun16 ALT 23 AST 25 Melbourne, Australia The following user(s) said Thank You: Chejai | |
Taurine Daclatasvir and Treatment Failure 8 years 5 months ago #11025
| Extracts are never reliable really. Herbs I'm happy taking in large amounts when fresh or dried become toxic to me when in extract form. I've tried several times and its always the same. I take extracts , even from trusted sources and I get liverish headaches and infernal itching. Its so predictable now I stay well clear of them. I wonder if it will be the same after treatment. I do think you can mistakenly overstimulate your immune system when you have hep and suffer for it. F49HepC25ysGT1a "mild" Harvoni 12 wks Brisbane, Australia |
Taurine Daclatasvir and Treatment Failure 8 years 5 months ago #11062
Liver fibrosis is not directly caused by the hepC virus. It is caused by inflammation set up by the immune system in response to the virus. So paradoxically, your Viral Load number bears no direct relationship to the progression of your liver damage, and trying to ramp up your immune response could be counter-productive. A much better approach to protecting your liver (while not on tx) is the use of natural anti-inflammatories, for example like cooking with turmeric. dt | |
Taurine Daclatasvir and Treatment Failure 8 years 5 months ago #11082
| Yes DT thats what I found out the hard way. In the end it was the Turmeric that won the day. But I also realised that whole herbs are whole for a reason, and that extracts are almost always inferior. Human beings always meddle with things too much. Whatever I've done to myself it hasn't been too detrimental to my liver. I had a fibroscan yesterday...4.7kpA. Not too bad after probably thirty years with this virus and an extremely misspent youth. F49HepC25ysGT1a "mild" Harvoni 12 wks Brisbane, Australia The following user(s) said Thank You: dointime |
Taurine Daclatasvir and Treatment Failure 8 years 5 months ago #11083
Research shows the complete opposite. Especially when it comes to Tumeric. The good parts (curumin) is not absorpable and they need to make a extract to get some absorption. Extracts are mostly always better for absorption and to get the most precise part of the plant or herb. Genotype 1A ALT 473 AST 226 Virus Load 3,119,030 Results as of May-2016 5 week viral load/undetected as of 12/02/2016 Liver Biopsy Results from Feb 2013 Portal/Periportal chronic inflammation and mild interface hepatitis (Grade 2) Focal Lobular chronic inflammation (Grade 1) Portal/Periportal fibrosis (stage 1-2 trichrome and reticulin stains utilized) Negative Iron stains. The following user(s) said Thank You: flyingfox66 | |
Taurine Daclatasvir and Treatment Failure 8 years 5 months ago #11085
| Curcurmin extracts have been linked to liver failure too. If the curcurmin in turmeric wasn't bioavailable in the mixture I make, it would have all the amazing symptom relief that it does. Perhaps people just don't know how to prepare it. Plants are synergistic medicine...a recipe of parts, not a single part that can be drilled down and "isolated". Its such a masculinist fallacy I'll leave it at that though cos this is seriously off topic. F49HepC25ysGT1a "mild" Harvoni 12 wks Brisbane, Australia |
Taurine Daclatasvir and Treatment Failure 8 years 5 months ago #11086
Masculinist fallacy? I guess we will just disagree then. Some know better then others and will always have different opinions. For the massess out there don't believe everything you read and do RESEARCH. Real research and not sites like Doctor Mercola or Mike Adams (Health Ranger)etc. Genotype 1A ALT 473 AST 226 Virus Load 3,119,030 Results as of May-2016 5 week viral load/undetected as of 12/02/2016 Liver Biopsy Results from Feb 2013 Portal/Periportal chronic inflammation and mild interface hepatitis (Grade 2) Focal Lobular chronic inflammation (Grade 1) Portal/Periportal fibrosis (stage 1-2 trichrome and reticulin stains utilized) Negative Iron stains. | |
Taurine Daclatasvir and Treatment Failure 8 years 5 months ago #11141
....cute! HCV 35 yrs G1a F3 Tx naive started Lesovir-C 15/12/2015 pre tx: VL 5,250,000 ALT 374 AST 208 FIBROSCORE 10.4 4 weeks tx ALT 29/ AST 33. VL < 12 UI/mL 8 weeks tx ALT 29/ AST 34. VL UND 4 weeks after tx UND. SVR4. ALT 24/AST 18 | |
Taurine Daclatasvir and Treatment Failure 7 years 8 months ago #22696
I don;t know why taurine treatment was failure. Taurine Function:maintain the brain function and accelerate the development of baby and children’s brain, accelerate the growth of the nervous system, accelerate the digestion of fat and plays a role in gall bile metabolization, protect the body’s cardiovascular system. | |
Taurine Daclatasvir and Treatment Failure 7 years 8 months ago #22697
Hi Han, Please see Dr Freeman's explanation in the first post of this thread. In summary, taurine is an essential compound as you say but it is also an inducer of the CYP3a4 enzyme which is what metabolises Daclatasvir. That means that increased levels of taurine increase the rate at which Daclatasvir is removed from our bodies therefore reducing its effectiveness. So while we need taurine to survive and it is a natural part of our diets, we should not add extra via supplements or energy drinks during treatments that contain Daclatasvir. An example where 'more' doesn't necessarily equal 'better'. Bristol-Myers Squibb who make and license Daclatasvir have recognised this is a potential issue per below quote and link.
link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs12325-016-0407-5 G3a since '78 - Dx '12 - F4 (2xHCC) 24wk Tx - PEG/Riba/Dac 2013 relapsed 24wk Tx - Generic Sof/Dac/Riba 2015/16 relapsed 16wk Tx - 12/01/17 -> 03/05/17 NS3/NS5a + Generic Sof SVR7 - 22/06/17 UND SRV12 - 27/07/17 UND SVR24 - 26/10/17 UND The following user(s) said Thank You: DrJames | |