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Nah, all good mate. Was just reading your Leunig post in the other thread and suspect we had a similar moment but in this case with best intentions from both sides.
G
G3a since ’78 – Dx ’12 – F4 (2xHCC)
24wk Tx – PEG/Riba/Dac 2013 relapsed
24wk Tx – Generic Sof/Dac/Riba 2015/16 relapsed
16wk Tx – 12/01/17 -> 03/05/17 NS3/NS5a + Generic Sof
SVR7 – 22/06/17 UND
SRV12 – 27/07/17 UND
SVR24 – 26/10/17 UND
zhuk wrote:No worries at all, GAJ. I wasn’t meaning to deflect anything from what the doc said – just wouldn’t like to see us go down the US-road of human antibiotic resistance due to farmed animals having to be fed antiobiotics where we have relatively little farmlot argriculture at present.
This is why I sometimes hate the internet, you can’t see my eyes or hand gestures or hear my tone of voice while I speak.
I didn’t think you were deflecting from what the doc said, in fact I understood you were agreeing and reinforcing it. But the way you expressed it was interesting in that you used the word “necessitating”.
I was trying to point out that this use of antibiotics is only necessary because the “farmers” involved choose to overcrowd their livestock beyond the natural immune defences of the animals, they choose to employ insufficient staff to be able spot potential illness and then administer the antibiotics to only the sick animals.
If asked, these same “farmers” will say it is necessary for the health and welfare of the animals and to ensure affordable, disease free food for their customers. This is dishonest, they have options, what they choose is to maximise their profits at the expense of the potential future health of the human race.
In the same way, big Pharma claim it is necessary to charge high prices to cover high R&D costs required to introduce new and better drugs. This is also dishonest, again they have options, what they choose is to maximise their shareholders profits to whatever the (local) market will bear without regard to peoples health.
So we should not use their words, necessity, necessitating, necessary, in these circumstances as they imply inevitability. We should keep reminding them and everyone else that they choose these paths that they take and that their choices have consequences.
sorry….I’ll get off my soapbox now
G
G3a since ’78 – Dx ’12 – F4 (2xHCC)
24wk Tx – PEG/Riba/Dac 2013 relapsed
24wk Tx – Generic Sof/Dac/Riba 2015/16 relapsed
16wk Tx – 12/01/17 -> 03/05/17 NS3/NS5a + Generic Sof
SVR7 – 22/06/17 UND
SRV12 – 27/07/17 UND
SVR24 – 26/10/17 UND
Enkel wrote:But the truth is that it is ranked and many new patients can find it easily.
Yes, compare that to this site where you almost have to put “fixhepc” into your search engine to find us.
This will be part of why those other sites remove comments about us and generics as quickly as possible. It stops Google bots and various other web crawlers from registering and caching us. So, if you are not too shy and frequent other non medical forums and social media sites, it doesn’t hurt to mention this sites existence and aims.
G3a since ’78 – Dx ’12 – F4 (2xHCC)
24wk Tx – PEG/Riba/Dac 2013 relapsed
24wk Tx – Generic Sof/Dac/Riba 2015/16 relapsed
16wk Tx – 12/01/17 -> 03/05/17 NS3/NS5a + Generic Sof
SVR7 – 22/06/17 UND
SRV12 – 27/07/17 UND
SVR24 – 26/10/17 UND
Hi zhuk,
Please don’t think I am having a go here, I’m not, but I believe it may be worthwhile to point out a difference between yours and the Doc’s posts. True, it is semantics but I think there is something of a lesson in it.
The Doc talks about the use of life saving antibiotics to facilitate (helps, assists) high density farming to achieve higher profits. On the other hand you say that modern farming practices neccessitate (need, forces) the use of these life saving antibiotics.
Very similar sounding statements but I would suggest that the Doc’s statement is the one that “Farmco” would present to their potential investors (twisted in a much more positive style and behind closed doors) while your take is the one that they would present to the media for general consumption by the public. I.e. The subliminal implication is “hey, we only do this because we “have” to, not because we want to”
And to bring it back to this site, we need to think about how Pharmco justify the high price of drugs to the media. We understand that good, healthy profit facilitates funding of high R&D costs for new drugs. OTOH Gilead argues that high R&D costs necessitate them charging $1,000 per pill for Sovaldi.
Ummmm…..yeeeees, so how much of the (approx) $999 profit per pill goes back into R&D, etc?????
G3a since ’78 – Dx ’12 – F4 (2xHCC)
24wk Tx – PEG/Riba/Dac 2013 relapsed
24wk Tx – Generic Sof/Dac/Riba 2015/16 relapsed
16wk Tx – 12/01/17 -> 03/05/17 NS3/NS5a + Generic Sof
SVR7 – 22/06/17 UND
SRV12 – 27/07/17 UND
SVR24 – 26/10/17 UND
Thanks for clarification and correction Dr James.
G3a since ’78 – Dx ’12 – F4 (2xHCC)
24wk Tx – PEG/Riba/Dac 2013 relapsed
24wk Tx – Generic Sof/Dac/Riba 2015/16 relapsed
16wk Tx – 12/01/17 -> 03/05/17 NS3/NS5a + Generic Sof
SVR7 – 22/06/17 UND
SRV12 – 27/07/17 UND
SVR24 – 26/10/17 UND
That’s great news Lynne, the more supportive GPs there are the better.
Yes, waiting for liver clinic access is currently a big issue. GPs knowledgable in treatment of simpler cases would be able to take the strain off the clinics and allow them to focus on the patients with complications that require more intensive treatment.
G.
G3a since ’78 – Dx ’12 – F4 (2xHCC)
24wk Tx – PEG/Riba/Dac 2013 relapsed
24wk Tx – Generic Sof/Dac/Riba 2015/16 relapsed
16wk Tx – 12/01/17 -> 03/05/17 NS3/NS5a + Generic Sof
SVR7 – 22/06/17 UND
SRV12 – 27/07/17 UND
SVR24 – 26/10/17 UND
Hi Ann,
I’ll try to answer this to the best of my knowledge based on laymans understanding of what I have been told. (Anyone else please jump in and correct me if I got it wrong).
The PCR/RNA test used to determine viral load doesn’t actually count the number of virions present in your blood but rather the levels of viral genetic material (RNA) present. This allows a calculation of approx levels of viral load which could be say 2 million or UND or < 15. 1. Obviously 2 million is fairly high and would indicate active virions replicating, otherwise your body's garbage system would be reducing the load. 2. UND means that the test was unable to detect RNA but it doesn't actually mean that no viral RNA is present anywhere in your body. However it does tend to indicate that the virus is probably eradicated and is certainly not actively replicating at the moment.
3. < 15 means that some RNA was detected but your load is below the tolerance accuracy of the equipment. But the thing to remember here is that the measure is RNA rather than viruses. So if you reach SVR12 at UND or < 15 then while some RNA is still being detected, there is no evidence of viral replication during the 12 weeks since treatment as the expectation would be that this virus replicates quite quickly. This would tend to indicate that the viruses have been "defeated" or "killed" even though some of it's genetic materials are still present in your body (sort of similar to the way that scientists can find DNA from wooly mammoths even though they have been extinct for millennium) and so you are considered "cured" for the purposes of the trial. The point to make here is that the only way to fully determine if someone has truly been "cured" is to follow them and test them for the rest of their natural life which is no use for the trial as we need results within our lifetime. But the good news is that the odds say that if SVR12 or better SVR24 have been achieved then the chance of relapse is extremely low to almost non existent.
G3a since ’78 – Dx ’12 – F4 (2xHCC)
24wk Tx – PEG/Riba/Dac 2013 relapsed
24wk Tx – Generic Sof/Dac/Riba 2015/16 relapsed
16wk Tx – 12/01/17 -> 03/05/17 NS3/NS5a + Generic Sof
SVR7 – 22/06/17 UND
SRV12 – 27/07/17 UND
SVR24 – 26/10/17 UND
Thanks Cyndi, appreciated.
It’s been inspiring to read of J’s and your journey.
You both must be thrilled to finally be able to get him treatment.Best wishes
GAJ
G3a since ’78 – Dx ’12 – F4 (2xHCC)
24wk Tx – PEG/Riba/Dac 2013 relapsed
24wk Tx – Generic Sof/Dac/Riba 2015/16 relapsed
16wk Tx – 12/01/17 -> 03/05/17 NS3/NS5a + Generic Sof
SVR7 – 22/06/17 UND
SRV12 – 27/07/17 UND
SVR24 – 26/10/17 UND
Hi Alsdad & dt,
Thanks for your comments. I should point out that it isn’t completely plain sailing over here either.
I had to ask my hepatologist about generics to get a response. (I suspect it is still not the done thing for public hep clinics to be recommending generics to their patients) Once I asked, he was forthcoming and told me the clinic had other patients doing the same and that he would write me a private scrip but did ask where I planned to source them from, obviously the “do no harm” rule kicking in but he was aware of Buyers Club, Kingswood and Greg. I then asked if he would monitor and his comment was that as I was a patient of the clinic I needed to continue being monitored anyway. So it can still be a bit “nudge, nudge – wink, wink” over here.
I then told my GP, explaining that I just expected him to monitor my general health. He was more difficult with dire warnings of internet scams, etc. He did calm down a bit when I explained where I got my scrip but I suspect he won’t be ready to accept until I start getting results of my bloods.
And yes dt, I’m selfish too. If I hadn’t got their support my plan was to keep trying other avenues until I got the generics. But I also want to help others which is why I’m writing about change.
As you say, you both have good docs even though the NHS won’t support them within the system at present. I have little doubt they will be discussing with their colleagues, particularly once they start to get “undetectables” and then SVRs down the track. And I should imagine that 2/3 of the hepatologists in the ranks are looking on with interest or talking round the water cooler at the moment anyway. Only a small percentage seize change on first sight but many will jump on board quickly when they see benefits with most of the rest following eventually. And that will open opportunities even if it has to be outside the NHS for now.
Talk with them in a non threatening environment, find out how you can help spread the message to others who they think badly need treatment. Ask them what information it would take to convince their colleagues. Request their input without judging.
Network as you say, but whenever the opportunity arises feed results back to “the system”. Let them know of yours and/or others successes. Make small incremental changes where you can and with time it will grow. Maybe not exactly as you currently envisage but that’s what change is all about.
G3a since ’78 – Dx ’12 – F4 (2xHCC)
24wk Tx – PEG/Riba/Dac 2013 relapsed
24wk Tx – Generic Sof/Dac/Riba 2015/16 relapsed
16wk Tx – 12/01/17 -> 03/05/17 NS3/NS5a + Generic Sof
SVR7 – 22/06/17 UND
SRV12 – 27/07/17 UND
SVR24 – 26/10/17 UND
Thanks LG,
I should have noted that to some extent I was referring to the Aust experience which appears to be a bit better than UK/US at the moment.
What does apply worldwide is that this change has happened in 6-8 weeks. Until then it was just internet scams and ‘maybe happened’ rumours so it will take time for the profession to adjust but we can help speed that process.
While I do have some compassion for a medical profession that has probably had to ‘harden’ itself to its patients to survive, I am more interested in how we and they can become US and work together for the future though you make very valid points about ways they can improve their side of the partnership.
G3a since ’78 – Dx ’12 – F4 (2xHCC)
24wk Tx – PEG/Riba/Dac 2013 relapsed
24wk Tx – Generic Sof/Dac/Riba 2015/16 relapsed
16wk Tx – 12/01/17 -> 03/05/17 NS3/NS5a + Generic Sof
SVR7 – 22/06/17 UND
SRV12 – 27/07/17 UND
SVR24 – 26/10/17 UND
So all those medicos should be dancing in the streets now that people are able to source their own DAAs at reasonable cost shouldn’t they?
Hmmmmm………so why isn’t that happening?
Well, remember Garth?
That’s right, you got it, CHANGE.
It’s scary for most people, even those in the medical profession.
Some medicos will adapt to it quickly and start surfing the DAA wave with us almost immediately.
Others will need to sit on the beach for a while and watch before they become confident enough to take the plunge.
There are those who may never do more than dip their toe in the water and will always insist on having the water wings of government subsidy or the lifesaving reels of insurance payments behind them.
Those of us who are already surfing or waiting for our boards to arrive need to convince them that the water is safe and warm. We can do that by calmly owning our own health, politely asking for assistance with monitoring, smiling and thanking them when they agree, and smiling and politely thanking them for listening before moving on and finding someone else if they refuse. Sharing our SRV celebrations with them and showing them that these drugs work, but not not blaming if by some tiny chance we don’t succeed.
Of course, there will also be some who will feel so threatened by the change that they will actively fight against it with every breath. This is just human nature, please forgive them. Fighting with them will only harden their stance and cause you unnecessary stress.
Anyway, enough from me for now. What about you?
G3a since ’78 – Dx ’12 – F4 (2xHCC)
24wk Tx – PEG/Riba/Dac 2013 relapsed
24wk Tx – Generic Sof/Dac/Riba 2015/16 relapsed
16wk Tx – 12/01/17 -> 03/05/17 NS3/NS5a + Generic Sof
SVR7 – 22/06/17 UND
SRV12 – 27/07/17 UND
SVR24 – 26/10/17 UND
This is a time of great change in the Hep C world thanks to people like Dr James, Greg Jefferys and nameless others who are working towards allowing us to access these new DAAs. And those of us posting here can and have seized the opportunity to surf this wave of change. Which is fantastic!
So what is my point?
Well, I’m seeing quite a bit of negativity towards some in the medical profession who aren’t “on board” yet.
I understand that in many ways; since being diagnosed I have also experienced many of the things others are complaining about. Seemingly uncaring specialists, GPs and nurses who had little or no sympathy. Who kept telling me to wait, who kept downplaying my symptoms, etc, etc, etc.And ummm……yeah, just like in any job there are probably some who aren’t suited to their role, particularly if that requires “customer contact”.
But I’ve also, over time, considered it from their perspective:
– Most I suspect went into their profession for noble reasons, they wanted to help others, maybe even save a few lives?
– Somehow they ended up in the Gastro/Hep field and dealing with Hep C
– Initially there was no treatment to cure their patients, the best they could do was minimise the impact.
– Then Interferon became available and gave a little hope but with horrendous sides.
– Then Peg/Riba with a little more hope – but still bad sides – such bad sides that most patients refused treatment, and many of those that did treat were surly/grumpy/agro during their treatment.
– And they have to break the bad news to the non-responders and relapsers on a regular basis, and effectively say “I failed”.
– Then more recently DAAs started to filter through. Our medico thinks “Finally! Something that works! I can do what I spent all those years training for: help people, even cure them!”
– “IT COSTS HOW MUCH!!!”
– “Now my ungrateful patients are blaming me because they/government/insurer can’t afford these new drugs.”Does that sound like the sort of job you would greet with a smile every day? Yeah, me neither.
G3a since ’78 – Dx ’12 – F4 (2xHCC)
24wk Tx – PEG/Riba/Dac 2013 relapsed
24wk Tx – Generic Sof/Dac/Riba 2015/16 relapsed
16wk Tx – 12/01/17 -> 03/05/17 NS3/NS5a + Generic Sof
SVR7 – 22/06/17 UND
SRV12 – 27/07/17 UND
SVR24 – 26/10/17 UND
Salute!
Em, you have my deepest respect and admiration for your strength and bravery.
G3a since ’78 – Dx ’12 – F4 (2xHCC)
24wk Tx – PEG/Riba/Dac 2013 relapsed
24wk Tx – Generic Sof/Dac/Riba 2015/16 relapsed
16wk Tx – 12/01/17 -> 03/05/17 NS3/NS5a + Generic Sof
SVR7 – 22/06/17 UND
SRV12 – 27/07/17 UND
SVR24 – 26/10/17 UND
Thanks Dr James, great news!
G3a since ’78 – Dx ’12 – F4 (2xHCC)
24wk Tx – PEG/Riba/Dac 2013 relapsed
24wk Tx – Generic Sof/Dac/Riba 2015/16 relapsed
16wk Tx – 12/01/17 -> 03/05/17 NS3/NS5a + Generic Sof
SVR7 – 22/06/17 UND
SRV12 – 27/07/17 UND
SVR24 – 26/10/17 UND
Thanks EM,
I originally tried to order 16th Oct but for some reason it wasn’t received. Finally got through about 10 days later and after a bit of tooing and froing finally received what looks like auto response stating order was place 29th Oct. and follow up emails would provide me with tracking……..but nothing since.
Been trying not to phone the club for updates when they could be more productively helping new people but it does weigh on your mind.
G3a since ’78 – Dx ’12 – F4 (2xHCC)
24wk Tx – PEG/Riba/Dac 2013 relapsed
24wk Tx – Generic Sof/Dac/Riba 2015/16 relapsed
16wk Tx – 12/01/17 -> 03/05/17 NS3/NS5a + Generic Sof
SVR7 – 22/06/17 UND
SRV12 – 27/07/17 UND
SVR24 – 26/10/17 UND
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