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Searched for: treatment
04 Oct 2015 18:44
Resistance and Treatment Failure are really the same thing. Failure to clear represents the selection of resistance. The way I explain it to patients is like this:

  • You have 1000 soldiers and you shoot them all with a machine gun
  • 100 were wearing bullet proof vests so you walk along with a sword and chop their heads off
  • 10 "idiots" put their vests on wrong, covering their necks so you drop rocks on their heads
  • 1 "idiot" put the armour plate meant for the front of the vest on his head....

Log Kill Rates

Each DAA (Direct Acting Antiviral) drug has what is known as a log kill. A log kill of -1 kills 9 out of 10, a log kill of -2 kills 99 out of 100, etc

Sofosbuvir has a log kill of something like -4.5 which means it kills about 31999 out of 32000 viruses

www.medscape.com/viewarticle/811157

Ledipasvir has a log kill of -3 which means it kills 999:1000

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24320933

Daclatasvir has a log kill of -3.3 which means it kills 1999:2000

Ribavirin has a log kill of only -0.5 which means it kills about 2 out of 3 viruses

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3002526/

I can't find data for log kill for Simeprevir (pointers welcome).

Log kill reflects the fact that for any one drug there are typically some survivors and the next drug's job is to "take them out". It makes sense that the next drug should use a different mechanism so taking Ledipasvir + Daclatasvir would not make much sense because either one can inhibit NS5A for GT1.

You don't get entirely additive benefits. Some of the viruses present will be killed by more than one method so the extra killing power goes to waste.

The goal of therapy is to reduce the number of viruses to absolute zero or very close. We know in chimpanzees that 1-10 virions (single virus units) is typically not enough to cause infection but > 100 almost always does cause infection.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14554088

How resistance happens

As mentioned in Understanding Hep C and the new DAAs the Hep C virus is like a mini photocopier. The thing is it's not a very good one. While it does make decent copies we all know a copy of a copy of a copy can end up blurry. With HCV that means it mutates into many "imperfect" forms.

Almost all of these imperfect copies are defective and die. Some however still work, although maybe not as well as "mum" or "dad" or really "the clone master" that originally entered the body.

In viruses we see rapid Darwinian evolution - survival of the fittest. If I can't breed as fast as you, then you have more clones and before we know it I'm a small minority group subject to persecution.

Now enter a DAA. All of a sudden the playing field changes. Whereas before putting on my bullet proof jacket just so worked great, now perhaps it does not and the small minority groups that mutated a little have a great advantage.

Enter a second DAA - it's job is to kill these ones off.

Enter a third DAA - it's job is to pick off any survivors....

Looking to the future

On first principles we observe with HIV there has been a progression from 1 to 2 to 3 (or more) medications and HAART - Highly Active Anti Retroviral Therapy. Given HIV and Hep C are similar there are probably useful lessons but it is still experimental.

If all of Sofosbuvir + Daclatasvir + Simeprevir were available it's hard to argue that might not be gold class.

If you wanted to go totally experimental Ribavirin has been shown to provide impressive results in cirrhotics with Sof + Dac so HAART in Hep C might end up as: Sof+Dac+Sim+Riba.

The fundamental problem with small trials is the margin of error. At n=100 this is +/-10% so the 96.6% you might read should really be 96.6% +/- 10%. In other words the confidence intervals of the various options overlap making it impossible to be definitive.

A word of warning

All drugs have side effects. For all genotypes there are proven combinations with excellent results. Sometimes less is more so my advice is go with the evidence and take the recommended combination(s). If that means you're cirrhotic and Ribavirin is suggested please take that or if you really don't want to make sure you extend to 24 weeks.
Category: Resistance
04 Oct 2015 18:58
Is it your opinion that treatments for HCV will eventually go the same way as Antibiotic treatments for infections Doc? Will the HCV antivirals keep having to be modified and strengthened?
Category: Resistance
04 Oct 2015 19:12
There is no reason to think it won't, but not for old patients who no longer have an exposure risk.

By definition if you fail treatment your viral load is going to contain a lot of relatively resistant clones. Your treatment just selected them.

Now these are probably going to be less functional but, if you were treated, treatment failed, then you passed that virus on, there is 1 extra person with a relatively Sof/Dac or Sof/Led resistant version of HCV.

This problem will occur in our goals (jails) where carriage rates of 30%+ are common. If say we treated that population for OH&S reasons we know that a number of treatment success stories (from the PEG/Riba days) will come back into jail reinfected. So they are still using unsafe IVDU practices.

If those felons got the virus from the wild it should be the usual sort, but if they were in jail treatment failures and passed it on, now we have resistant stuff floating around in the community in a group that are not being careful.

In Tasmania we incarcerate 1500 people a year. 30% (600) have HCV. Of the 900 who enter jail HCV negative about 12.5% exit HCV positive so about 8% of people passing through our penal system get HCV while doing time.

What we need to do is wipe this thing out now while we have the upper hand. We did it to smallpox but are, for example, failing with Whooping Cough due to falling vaccination rates where once we are winning.

The time to treat this on a mass scale is right now.
Category: Resistance
04 Oct 2015 20:00
Greg wrote about a 'worst case scenario' getting his Indian Sof into the US here:

hepatitisctreatment.homestead.com/greg-jefferys-blog.html

It's the 8th August entry.
04 Oct 2015 20:11
That makes sense. Dac's only just been approved in the US, and Harvoni is fairly recent in Europe.So I expect we'll be hearing a lot more about Sof/Dac G1 treatment in the coming months.
Category: Patient Stories
05 Oct 2015 04:56
Who is suggesting you take interferon? Surely the NHS offers Haveron as a stand alone treatment.
Category: Q & A
05 Oct 2015 05:19
The final appraisal from NICE for NHS England is due this coming November, then it will probably take 3 months from that date. Then it will be up to the NHS commissioners and local hospitals. There will be waiting lists, so I believe the triple sofo/Interf/Riba may well be offered to many who don't wish to wait. Some have been told waiting list is 2 years already. I guess it will depend on your post code. I know someone with cirrhosis who has not yet started treatment, all those patients are supposed to have started treatment by now. Unbelievably, there are people being offered the old triple here in England! As for me, I was mainly talking about my initial feeling when first diagnosed and in response to Nadia's comment above. Lasts bloods showed 'strong auto-immune response' - I need to do what I have to do if treatment isn't forthcoming and have other health issues I believe are caused by the virus., even then, if all goes well NHS England will only offer 8 weeks Harvoni. I guess the logic is many will clear and it'll be cheaper to re-treat the 6% or so that may fail. We are waiting to see what NICE say, but in reality, it will be down to individual hospital budgets and where you are on the list. So we have to wait for NICE then see our consultants for adise in our area, I don't think there will be identical treatment options in every region. Hope I'm wrong, but that's what I've deducted from a variety of articles, videos and professional opinions, you know? Things are different in Scotland and Wales. Scotland have officially got rid of Interferon treatment for GT1s. Go Scotland !
Category: Q & A
05 Oct 2015 05:31
Good to hear Nadia, long may it continue that well.

What I am trying to understand I guess, is are there any differences showing between the Harvoni and the Sofo/DAC treatments. Are there any over 50 GT1s with aches and pains pre treatment on here who have taken Harvoni? Or are there any reports on either treatments to compare? Etc I am doing my homework :)

If I need to get a prescription, I have to decide what for.
Category: Q & A
05 Oct 2015 06:33
Sov/Dak costs the NHS about £20,000 more than Harvoni per 12 weeks:

www.pmlive.com/pharma_news/limited_acces...the_spotlight_788876

It's a purely cost-driven decision to treat G1's with Harvoni.
Category: Patient Stories
05 Oct 2015 08:08
That;s great to hear Nadia. I'm feeling more confident about my decision now. What a steep learning curve, so much information.

Do you know much about taking vitamin supplements while on these medications? I am prone to migraine and started taking a magnesium supplement, which has worked wonders for me. I stopped taking any herb or vitamin supplements as soon as I started on 'the cure'. I usually take my magnesium in the evening. I take my sof/dac in the morning. I'm wondering if this would be ok?

All the very best
Vicki
Category: Q & A
05 Oct 2015 13:14
Hi, I was hoping someone could tell me how to go about procuring a 24 week supply of daclatasvir and sofosbuvir given that I'm only allowed to import a 12 week supply?, I assume the 24 week course would need to be taken without interruption of medication, can someone shed any light on this dilemma?, the only logical play out of this scenario to me would be to stockpile the first 12 week supply and then import the second 12 week course after the original 3 month medication was due to be used up?,

i also would like to applaud the team at 'FixHepC' , I and many more now have a reason to hope, I put no faith in cabinet approval for a PBS listing, and who could blame them at the price the pharmaceutical companies are asking.
Category: Q & A
05 Oct 2015 13:41
You can import three months at a time. This does not mean you have to wait three months to import your next lot.

No issue my friend. As Meso have closed their doors to individual supply I would imagine Fixhepc will be your provider. In that case I think you will find they have this issue under control

If you are using Indian sofosbuvir through Greg Jefferys then the same would apply.
Category: Q & A
05 Oct 2015 16:55
Hi Alan, may I direct you to the site where we are discussing this aspect more fully.

It is a FaceBook page "Hepatitis C treatment without borders"

The short answer is yes. Go for it. You can get a doctor there to give you a script but it may not be necessary.

I believe there is tests being done right now by people on this site and the FB page and results from Twinvir tests will be available any day.
Category: Q & A
05 Oct 2015 17:14
Half time result.
4 week VL results of 12 week Sof/Dac/Riba treatment. GT 1b, F 3/4. July VL 480,000

24 September 2015 VL................Not Detected.

Science 1
HCV 0

Go science!

Will post results later. Gotta get dinner ready.

Chester
Category: Viral Load Results
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