TOPIC:

Gaj wrote: Hmm. Not sure that there have been any licensing deals with generics manufacturers that U.S. Vets admin can take advantage of? And responsive wouldn't be the word I would apply to Gilead licensing deals in countries that did not recognise the patent. Perhaps reactive is a more appropriate description?

That's a good point and relates to the core of the problem which is the way the US medical system allows profiteers, including Gilead, to operate. But Gilead is working rationally within the boundaries of a broken system. Fortunately this logic, reactive or not, has allowed India to manufacture generics under an agreement with them, and we are the beneficiaries of that logic.

I completely agree that they are greedy, but they are doing nothing illegal, and in this neoliberal world that we live in, this could be seen as doing nothing immoral.

While not sure what the PBS agreement has to do with the above discussion, we can go there if you like. I'm not privy to what the correct costs are so will accepts yours for now but as you more correctly point out further down your post the Australian government isn't "footing the bill". The Australian taxpayer is though, and as one I'm not sure I understand why we have to pay the price of $30k per Tx for something that the manufacturer can make for several hundred bucks (probably less) and generics manufacturers could supply for around 5-7% of Gilead's price even after paying a 7% licensing fee?

I'm not sure of the details, either, but why was there no outrage over interferon costing $15,000 per treatment?

And I don't see anything extraordinary in a publicly funded universal health care system such as Medicare paying for healthcare for all Australians, although I guess the profits that Gilead is still making on the deal would qualify for that word!

For one, it's incredibly expensive to treat everyone, so the extraordinary thing for me is that they managed to get this deal happening at all, even though the price is still high for the taxpayer. The really strange thing is that they announced that there would be no triaging according to condition. That is, no sending healthy people to the back of the queue.I'd be very surprised if this was not just empty words as there is a lot of money involved.

Vororo wrote: Dear A.L.,

If you bought a new top of the range car with all the latest gadgets (speed control, air conditioning, parking assist, econo-boost engine, interior LEDs, the lot) for $50 000, you'd probably be pretty happy with the deal, right?

Suppose you then learn that the true cost of manufacturing that car (including all R&D and a fair profit margin) was only $1 000?

How would you feel about that?

This is how it is today with Gilead's prices ...

fixhepc.com/blog/item/25-the-real-develo...t-of-sofosbuvir.html

Hi!

But we're not dealing with a car here. We are talking about a much more effective treatment than Peg-Interferon being marketed at levels that seem to be acceptable to the (dreadful) American medical/insurance system. The fact that they are profiteering.... well, I guess that's why they are in business and we are sitting on the sidelines complaining.

That linked balance sheet is one part of a very complicated argument. As I've said before, I think Gilead are being greedy, but they are also doing a lot of the legwork and testing and so on. Their willingness to compromise for other countries maybe tells us more about the dire condition of the United States than the natural greed of a company who spotted and exploited a prime opportunity.

Chester wrote: Can we have the facility to hide the posts of specific members like they have on some forums? There's one members' posts I'd just rather not bother reading.

I guess that you're talking about me. In my defence, all of my posts have been direct and clear, and some of them even helpful.

If the fact that I have a different point of you on just one aspect of this issue means that you would like to erase me from your view, then I am saddened that debate has sunk to the level where people can only bear to exist in an echo chamber of their own opinions.

If I'm being a little forward in my opinion, it is in reply to the vitriolic hate being expressed here at times. I quite understand the frustration, but I don't think that one-sided fury in a complex argument should stand unaddressed.

Greedfighter wrote: ...To post in the media or online in USA is to risk a lawsuit by a corporation and economic suicide or even legal action. Don't underestimate the power of the greedy elite. You can't confront Goliath. You have to hurl rocks from afar and get lucky to slay him! One lucky shot, right in the eye...David did it

Many good points, Greedfighter. That really says it all about the particular species of neoliberalism that the US is exporting and which minnows like Australia are keen to adopt. Let's hope that this site keeps strong along with the heroes who are doing the sweating for the rest of us.

If the VA has to pay extortionate prices, then taxes will have to be raised or some social services cut or the deficit will be increased or, more likely, all the above.
The government shipped these people all over the world to fight, in many cases, other peoples' unjustified wars.
If they won't ship affordable meds to the vets, ship the vets to the affordable meds.
Any neoliberalism in the U.S. is more than balanced out by those right wing Tea Party nut cases who have paralyzed Congress.
Generics forced Greediad to cut the deal in Australia.
They can do the same in the U.S.
Congress can fund life ending drones.
Why can't they fund life saving drugs?
Mike

Well said, Mike! We all pay for high prices via increased insurance,taxes and cost of providing
care to those who become seriously ill with Hep C!

A bit of joined up thinking would be fantastic sadly we're not likely to see this anytime soon.

This whole thread should be deleted. All it will do is divide us, just as politics is doing in the US right now.

This is not really about politics. This is about a government who, in my case, forced a generation to go to war in a country many of them did not know existed.
The whole point I am trying to make is this: If you are going to force people to go to war or go to jail, you should damn well take care of them when they get home.
That is the least they can do.
Many fought, were injured or died to protect the system that Gilead is using to make billions and they are being denied treatment because it costs too much.
What is wrong with us?Mike

With that I agree wholeheartedly. We should take care of ALL of our vets before a single dime goes to any other country.

Well, I always like a good debate, and I can accept other peoples point of view, even if I don't always agree. In the end, if I don't agree with someone, its because I think I understand the basic facts.

Concerning today's treatments for Hepatitis C, the basic facts are that the price charged by Gilead for a life-saving treatment are extortionately high for those that can afford it, and absolutely out of reach for those who cannot. The end result is that hundreds of thousands of people are dying each year and millions more are suffering needlessly. So please don't anyone try to tell me its a complex problem. Its only the solution that seems complex... But only if you want it to be.

Dr James has just posted today (20 Jan 2016) a very informative fact-based article on fixHepC BLOG;

fixhepc.com/blog/itemlist/user/1419-marko.html

Here is another one (02 Dec 2015) about the (fact-based) investigation of Senators Wyden and Grassley (with easy links to the facts of the investigation):

fixhepc.com/blog/item/29-us-lawmakers-al...patitis-c-drugs.html

Will these basic facts change anyone's mind? They should!

splitdog wrote: This whole thread should be deleted. All it will do is divide us, just as politics is doing in the US right now.

I think that if something is censored then the reasons for this should be clear and the rules on censorship should be made known. This is in fact exactly the case here on fixhepC where the Doc has made his rules clear. Just having an opinion which is divisive is not one of the reasons which would justify deleting a whole thread.

The right to free speech (in general, not on this site) has been much in the limelight this week with the 3 hour debate in the UK parliament on whether Trump should be banned from the UK. Many powerful arguments were made on both sides concerning his divisive rhetoric. For those who are interested, here's just one report on that debate.
www.vox.com/2016/1/20/10799886/uk-trump-visa

My point is that we should be very careful indeed about what is censored if we don't want a site where everybody has to sing the same tune to be here.

dt

Personally i have no issue with ALs discussion I believe it is productive to have broad range of thinking around the HCV landscape internationally. As a moderator i have never deleted any postings, sorry no there was one and it was on the basis of rasism.

My distain for for gileads ethics is no secret however i look to a broken system that has allowed the company to do what it has done. Is it by accident that daclatasvir arguably the best NS5A pangeno available (BMS) only got FDA approval in July this year? And gileads so called breakthrough drug velapasvir is now being fast tracked via the FDA to compete with dac as an NS5A pangeno? Its not comlex really, its FDA corruption and truckloads of cash as incentive.

Question? How much would it cost gilead to treat 200k vets at $350 a treatment? Will it make much difference to the bottom line? Em

Which is why I just ask to be able to block A.L's posts personally.

Apparently, I'm supposed to be incredibly grateful to Gilead for buying and developing this drug. I don't see it that way but s/he is entitled to their opinion. Thus far they haven't come close to convincing me. As such, I couldn't be bothered reading any more lectures about how great they are.

You don't need a degree in advanced mathematics to see that the profits Gilead are making from these drugs is obscene. Hell if you take the lowest WHO figure for the number infected with HCV worldwide and multiply it by the cost in low income countries Gilead has done a deal with, the profit is still massive. Even allowing for development costs, manufacturing etc.

One of the problems with capitalism is that it fails to account for the common good even though if it did, capitalism would be in a better position to flourish.

As for the Australian government paying for Tx, we have socialised health care (mostly), a very non-capitalist idea. It ain't exactly news. And Australians have shown repeatedly that politicians will be damned if they try to undermine it in any significant way. We vote them in and out, we pay their salaries, we pay the taxes. Paying for hep c txt is what I expect them to do because it is obviously the most sensible and economically viable course of action.

Discussing Politics or even policy in a public forum is a tricky thing the same goes for religion. We are fortunate here in that we have a common purpose and to distract from that would not serve us well at all. By all means we can make comments but be mindful that we come from many different countries ,cultures and social situations.

Cheers Guys

This is maybe going off-topic, but since there are at least two people on this thread who might be interested/capable:

Would it be technically possible to have a little button next to each post that says something like "Hide/Unhide" or "Shrink/Enlarge"? This would then minimise the message to show only the first line or two, for example?

I ask only because there are more and more one-liners on the forum like "Great news!", "Glad you are doing so well!", etc, which are great to see for the first time (especially for the intended recipient) but which become a bit heavy to scroll through when trying to follow the original topic of the thread on a slow connection.

[Mods: please feel free to move this to the technical section if you see fit]