TOPIC:

I posted the below in another thread and suggested a new thread be started rather than detract from that thread which carried some useful information particularly for our UK members, as the other party didn't follow through I thought it more appropriate to migrate it over here into a more relevant section of the forum.

"It's just hard for me to see something broken and shrug my shoulders and move on."

And yet.......

"I was going to ask Gilead for their compassionate treatment since I have no insurance. They wanted me to apply for medicare, get denied, appeal, and get denied again. I just came here."

On the one hand I see LG with experience of the system attempting to assist others to negotiate it in a way that will allow them to receive needed treatment.

On the other hand I see you making snide little remarks about the system being broken......something that we already know.

If you want to live up to your first quote above and add value around here, perhaps rather than crapping on other poster's threads you should start your own thread proposing how you would create a system that works in a better manner than what is currently available.

Great idea Gaj.

C'mon Splitdog. Have at it. Cruz, Trump and all. Let's keep it here rather than hijacking everybody else's threads with your political agenda.
dt

The poster of the two quotes I included above asked how they were relevant. My point being that they just threw up their hands when Gilead tried to make them use the Gilead system. Didn't try to change it or protest it or challenge it in court or anything like that. Just walked away! Went overseas and sourced from there.

And then criticises others systems.

I'll jump in to defend Splitdog

In America, the political system is broken, every single politician except Bernie Sanders is virtually the same.

There was a senate hearing about Gilead's Harvoni and Sofosbuvir pricing. They did all they could to embarrass them....and did not even suggest a possible resolution. It was just political grandstanding....vote for me I am a good guy BULLSHIT.

Gilead has a patent. Pay up or die, or if you have a brain, scramble and get treated from overseas

Believe me, the forces of evil and greed will do whatever they can to block generic access in USA. This is a window of opportunity here for people. The attitude Gilead has towards US patients is wait to get ill and be treated, and if you have no insurance, you die. Who cares?

You can't really have a perfect medical system, unless you have perfect human beings.
I do believe however that Australia has come very close, though unfortunately its funding is being strangled and its very existence under threat from very imperfect government. The major flaw that it has is that is doesn't cover dental stuff. In fact even the private insurance doesn't really cover dental properly. You basically cannot have healthy human beings with bad teeth, so its a biggie.
There has to be tax funded healthcare until the day we are all making the same wage, and being paid fairly for all our work, including so called "womens work" and creative work too. Until that day Universal Healthcare is our best bet. Even then we will need something in place to care for those too young or old to work, so really the only alternative to "socialised medicine" is dog eat dog.

I also believe more emphasis needs to be placed on educating kids how to care for their bodies, including things like meditation, nutrition and herbal remedies.

And of course, the corruption needs to be taken out of the pharma industry. Scientists need to be rewarded and encouraged for their research, but after that all their discoveries should be owned by the collective.

Kind of like Communism: looks great on paper, but goes to Hell when you try to make it work using real people.

All of the "isms" are a bit like that.
In the end we only have our compassion and our humanity...and if we can find a healthy outlet for those, we can create a collective that cares for everyone. Because the ultimate truth is, that we are all one.

In my view all the "isms" have one basic flaw.....they require people with all their quirks, emotions and need for control. That might sound pretty cynical but it is reality as I see it. On the other hand I also believe that the human race will survive and advance and we will keep helping and assisting our fellow man as we have done and felt a deep seated need to do for millennia. Proof of that lies in us being able to discuss this over the Internet as we are doing.

We keep talking about Gilead and NHS, etc. as if they are big monolithic entities that have minds of their own and so we blame "them" and throw our hands in the air and say we can't do anything. The reality is that these entities are just made up of people like us with all their faults. Those people have their hands on the controls and appear to have all the power and to be able to behave as they wish whether greedily, uncaringly or even benevolently. That isn't strictly true, the reality is that they can do that not because of any special powers they have but because we vest those powers in them.

An example of this can be found in another recent thread where a member was subjected to refusal to take her bloods in an arbitrary manner. She could have just accepted that, licked her wounds and moaned about the NHS. Instead she took the matter through the appropriate channels, got her bloods taken and ensured that people within that "system/hospital" were aware of what happened. Probably not a lot will happen about it in this instance but it is now on record and as and when other patients complain about the same person then the "system/hospital" will start to take heed and implement processes that ensure it doesn't occur in future. Because unless it was just a 'bad hair day' which I doubt, someone like that will most likely be behaving in that manner towards other patients than just our member. Up until now they have been rewarded for that behaviour in some manner, either via a feeling of power, a need to control their environment expressed in an inappropriate manner or some such and because no one has called them to account over it.

The thing is, if enough people make enough noise for long enough, then something does happen. Whether it be the hospital system, big pharma and the patent system or government itself. Yes, it's a slow, tiresome, unthanked process but it is how change has been effected throughout history. Start making noise people.


Thankyou, I'll pack away my soapbox for now.

First of all, we need to find a way to control costs. As long as healthcare is paid by somebody else, (insurance co's and govt), there is no incentive to save. Also, who makes all the money in HC? Hospitals and ins companies. Dr's in America make about $130-180k a year. That's not where the money is going. We need to get rid of the 'middle man'. So we must concoct a new system where people somehow pay their own medical care. Now, of course no one can afford a liver transplant, or other major catastrophic event, but most medical procedures are small, and don't necessarily require hospitalization. So people must have an incentive to shop, or otherwise save money. This would probably account for almost half of all medical costs. Maybe create an account that everyone pays into, like insurance, except YOU are in control. This would have to garner interest, and be fail-safe. Then, people would use the money in 'their account' to pay for elective, or small procedures. That is what it is for. However, if you don't require any, you would get a check back, or have future premiums decline in price. There HAS to be incentive to save, and shop, otherwise, we're 'spending someone else's money' which is ultimately going to be us. Second, we have to revamp the way dr's can be sued so that they don't routinely order tons of unneeded tests to 'cover their ass'. This type of system has already been proposed. It would actually MAKE money. If the government pays for it all, WE pay in increased taxes (where do you think it comes from) and is administered sloppily, and wastefully. Then we arrive at the current system where you have bureaucrats determining treatment options, and price. Like i said before, my Dr in the 70's and 80's wrote this all up. I think I have it somewhere. I'll see if I can find it and forward any ideas in it. Maybe Dr Freeman has heard of these ideas in his travels.

Yeah, Gaj. I started 'making some noise' and some people didn't like it. It is impossible to get everyone to come to the same conclusion on anything. I think that is a failsafe God did on purpose.

Okay, I'm not quite sure if you are proposing a mutual/insurance fund type setup that also covers something catastrophic like a liver transplant or just a 'bank account' that only covers you for what you have contributed in which case why not cut out the middle man and just invest your own funds as you see fit pending your need to draw on them if you can afford the treatment (the rich of course are still able to pay for their transplants).

If you mean a mutual/insurance type set up that will cover major events, then sure, you can probably set one up yourself keeping in mind that you will need a lot of members to spread the risk. That way each of you becomes a shareholder in that fund and any profits and interest are accrued to you as member/shareholders of that fund. There is your incentive. You may also want to open it up to non-shareholder members who are prepared to pay a non returnable premium for coverage. That will spread the shareholder members risk even further and probably be a nice little earner or at least pay the admin costs. Or you could join an already established insurance company as a member and also buy shares in the company and gain the same advantages of health cover plus a share of any profits without all the hassle of set up for yourself.

If just a cash fund then you have stuff all bargaining power to get cheaper health services and just as much likelihood that someone somewhere will be rorting the system to their advantage. If the mutual/insurance fund set up then regardless of whether you set it up yourself or invest in an established one then the bargaining power is what it is currently ($55k vs $96k for Harvoni I believe?) and someone, somewhere will still be using the system to their advantage rather than yours!

It is the people taking advantage of whichever system for their own motives that you need to identify and make the noise towards.

How about a hybrid system where the government (or some other 3rd party with no conflict of interest) administers a compulsory system of personal savings account to be used as described above. The govt would REQUIRE it, yet make it tax-free and everyone able to get money out if they don't use it. There's your 'spread'. Then the govt could pick up any slack (if there ever was any). It would still be miles above what we have now, and taxes could go down. (as if....).

YOU identify the people taking advantage of a system for their own motives and make some noise. I already have been. Hello!

My Dr asked me if there were any family history of mental illness. I said "Yeah. I have a niece who supports Hillary Clinton."

Yeah, I have the same with my nephews: one supports Cruz and the other Trump.
But, it's a free country. They can support whoever they want. When we meet for family get togethers, we have only one rule: Leave the politics at the door. Works like a charm.
We have the same policy at work.
The golf course.....hell, even cell phones aren't allowed....

Gaj wrote: The poster of the two quotes I included above asked how they were relevant. My point being that they just threw up their hands when Gilead tried to make them use the Gilead system. Didn't try to change it or protest it or challenge it in court or anything like that. Just walked away! Went overseas and sourced from there.

And then criticises others systems.

You must resent my political affiliation to the point of personal attacks on the forum. Which is a shame, because we started out as friends on a parallel journey.
1. "Just threw up their hands when Gilead tried to make them use the Gilead system. Didn't try to change it or protest it or challenge it in court or anything like that. Just walked away! Went overseas and sourced from there.

I didn't just 'throw up my hands'....You're right. I came here. I utilized the free-market capitalism system to acquire my own meds and paid for them myself. Now I am trying to help others achieve that same goal.

2. Court challenges!!?? Are you serious? I haven't the time, or resources for that. I have no insurance, remember? And I am protesting it....right here, and on LG's thread.

3. "And then criticizes other systems". Of course, that is how change is brought about..........

4. "I posted the below in another thread and suggested a new thread be started rather than detract from that thread which carried some useful information particularly for our UK members, as the other party didn't follow through I thought it more appropriate to migrate it over here into a more relevant section of the forum." These are personal digs. Not sure of their contributional value.


It's kind of funny; The left calls for free speech and diversity. Unless of course, those are diverse ideas, or speech they don't like. I believe if you look back, I never made it personal against you. I hope everybody can see that.

I have a friend in Southern California who owns and operates a drug and alcohol rehabilitation center. It is fairly large, and he has 'lots of customers'. I have made him aware of my new situation regarding alternative treatment options and he is excited to share the info I provided to help his clients. That and my liver specialist here as well. So trying to get the word out and helping others get cured even if it means 'going around the system'.

I'll answer the question put forth in one simple line.

We all deserve health care at affordable or zero cost its an absolute intangible right.

What is it about some Americans that find its offensive you might get treated for free they rant and rave
over people getting affordable health care the debacle over Obama care is actually insane.

Then again, look at the Republican debate last night:) Absolutely fucking nuts.