emo Supplements with evidence

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6 years 7 months ago #7138

But if I understand correctly, statin & B12 supplement & vit D supplement & antioxidant only end of treatment, after 12 weeks of Twinvir.
Am I right?

No, you are not right.

Supplements, if taken, need to be taken during the medication treatment period. Taking before to prepare, and after will not hurt but is not as important.

If taking supplements I would take separate from medications by 2 or more hours. No evidence for that but it will ensure medications have had time to be absorbed.


YMMV
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6 years 7 months ago #7483

So in short what supplements to take DURING TREATMENT, B12, D AND Vitamin C ????
Presently taking B12 and C #flower


Treatment naive
F 3/4
Genotype 1 a & b
V/L 17 MILLION
Started Harvoni 11th Dec 2015 for 12 weeks
4 weeks VL UND
6 WEEKS ALT 32, AST 34
EOT 03/03 2016 ! UND
ALT 34, AST 26
04.04.2016 SVR 4
26.05.2016 SVR 12
16.08.2016 SVR 24
Last Edit: 6 years 7 months ago by darbara.

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6 years 7 months ago #7485

Yes to B12 and D

No to retinol, C, E, K and selenium

fixhepc.com/forum/experts-corner/566-sup...-hcv-viral-load.html


YMMV
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6 years 7 months ago #7488

OK NEED to stop the C then.


Treatment naive
F 3/4
Genotype 1 a & b
V/L 17 MILLION
Started Harvoni 11th Dec 2015 for 12 weeks
4 weeks VL UND
6 WEEKS ALT 32, AST 34
EOT 03/03 2016 ! UND
ALT 34, AST 26
04.04.2016 SVR 4
26.05.2016 SVR 12
16.08.2016 SVR 24

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6 years 7 months ago #7509

Same here I thought the C was ok..now stopped but will continue with the B12 and D. Thanks Dr Freeman.


GT2b diagnosed 10/2015
since: unknown
11/20/15 VL= 214,070
12/4/15 ALT=18 AST= 24
1/16/16 started sof/dac
2/13/16 @4wks VL=UND ALT=13 AST=22
3/12/16 @8wks VL=UND ALT=10 AST=18
4/9/16 EOT VL=UND ALT=11 AST=19
9/23/16 SVR24 ALT=11 AST=22

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6 years 7 months ago #8047

Hi, just a quick question to Dr F hopefully if I can catch you
Or anyone who might know?
What do you recommend as the dosage for B12?
The existing bottle I had the nurse frowned at and said not to take as she didn't know about what was in it. It was a Vit B complex with high doses plus other ingredients.

Also whilst I'm here, just wondering about the timing of blood pressure tablet. Would that be 2 hours after the meds also? I can't even remember asking the nurse about that! I just remember her saying to take the meds first.,
:)
#duck #flower


Geno 1a, F1, tx naive, had it 35 yrs.
Started Cipla HepcvirL on 12/01/16
Starting VL 490,000
At 16 days in <15
4 week results: UND
8 week results: UND
5 weeks EOT alt 25
SVR 15 - Not Detected
6 months EOT - Not Detected
Last Edit: 6 years 7 months ago by Debs.
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6 years 7 months ago #8053

B12 is water soluble so excess passes out in your urine. You need about 2.5 IU a day and there is often 5-10 IU in mixed B and multivitamin preparations. "Pure" B12 tablets often have 500-1000 IU.

Here is what the Mayo clinic has to say about B12:

www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/vit.../dosing/hrb-20060243

The bit about people taking high doses for years is reassuring.

10 IU as a minimum and 1000 IU as a maximum is a pretty wide range but somewhere in that range would be what I might take if faced with making a choice based on inadequate data.


YMMV
Last Edit: 6 years 7 months ago by DrJames.
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6 years 7 months ago #8054

Hi Debs, I need to buy some new B12,

Threw the bottle away & will need to look up what I ordered before after much research as I have forgotten!

Another bottle I have, from ages ago, Vitamin B50 complex, states the following re ingredients :

Cellulose
Thiamine
Monobitrate
Vitamin B6
Panothnic Acid (Calcium Panothenate)
Inositol
Riboflavin
Niacin
Choline Bitartrate
Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose
Stearic Acid
Para Amoni Benzoic Acid
Silicon Dioxide
Magnesium Stearate
Tablet coating ( Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose Glycerin)
Folic Acid
B12 ( Methylcobalamin) 50 ug 2,000 %RDA
Biotin

Phew!


GT1a Dec14 F2/8.7 VL 900000-2.5M
Jan16 Hepcivir-L MonkMed/Redemption
Baseline: VL 913575 Alt 76 Platelets low
Wk2 VL1157 Alt 23
DET Wk 8 VL 32 Alt19 'In the slow lane'
June16 Fibro 5.7 F0/1 LIF 1.5
Wk 11 VL<12 Alt 13 Det/Unq
Extending tx 12 wks Mylan Sofo/Dac MonkMed
Wk 14 VL <12 Det/Unq
Wk 16 VL UNDETECTED
Wk 22 + 4 Wks Sunprevir FixHepC
Wk 24 UNDETECTED Alt 13
Wk 12 post tx SVR12 Wk 26 SVR24
Thank-you Tim, Dr Debasis @ MonkMed & Dr Freeman @ Fix HepC
Last Edit: 6 years 7 months ago by LondonGirl.
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6 years 7 months ago #8056

Yes LG, mine has a lot of those ingredients in also, must be beneficial in a B complex.
But are they all good to take on tx I wonder?
I do want to keep taking B vitamins as I am sure they have also helped with my hair loss which I have had over the last few years.
#love


Geno 1a, F1, tx naive, had it 35 yrs.
Started Cipla HepcvirL on 12/01/16
Starting VL 490,000
At 16 days in <15
4 week results: UND
8 week results: UND
5 weeks EOT alt 25
SVR 15 - Not Detected
6 months EOT - Not Detected
Last Edit: 6 years 7 months ago by Debs.
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6 years 7 months ago #8059

Hi Dr F, Thank-you, You say IU and my bottle says a strange thing , looks like iu but there's a line in front of that which doesn't really resemble anything I recognise!

I hear you Debs, maybe it's a question for a not too busy pharmacist ?! The list is long!

#love


GT1a Dec14 F2/8.7 VL 900000-2.5M
Jan16 Hepcivir-L MonkMed/Redemption
Baseline: VL 913575 Alt 76 Platelets low
Wk2 VL1157 Alt 23
DET Wk 8 VL 32 Alt19 'In the slow lane'
June16 Fibro 5.7 F0/1 LIF 1.5
Wk 11 VL<12 Alt 13 Det/Unq
Extending tx 12 wks Mylan Sofo/Dac MonkMed
Wk 14 VL <12 Det/Unq
Wk 16 VL UNDETECTED
Wk 22 + 4 Wks Sunprevir FixHepC
Wk 24 UNDETECTED Alt 13
Wk 12 post tx SVR12 Wk 26 SVR24
Thank-you Tim, Dr Debasis @ MonkMed & Dr Freeman @ Fix HepC
Last Edit: 6 years 7 months ago by LondonGirl.
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6 years 6 months ago #8104

Hey Debs
I will pick up some B12 today. I am interested in reading that you have been experiencing hair loss as do I. Is hepc contributing to this? I don't know but would like to learn more. Thankyou for mentioning this.


gt 1a VL 6m
F2/3 FibroScan - 9KPa in 2011 and 7KPa in 2015
sof/dac 10 December for 12 weeks
pre tx alt 85 ast 51
4 wk alt 34 ast 31 UND <35
8 wk alt 29 ast 32 UND <15
12wk alt 25 ast 25 EOT 3.3.16
SVR24 UND KPa5.3 F0 in normal range
I am well
.forever grateful to fixhepc

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6 years 6 months ago #8107

Hi Pat - I haven't really seen anyone mention this much as a hep c symptom. So I wonder. When it first happened to me years ago I looked into it and came to the conclusion it was hormonal and an age thing. I tried loads of things and eventually tried Nourkrin that really helped, and also the B Vit complex.
Have ditched the nourkrin pre tx and hair hasn't shed yet, but maybe it will. Maybe I'm clutching at straws thinking it might be hep c related due to lack of B Vits?
It really is horrible losing your hair isn't it? I used to be so proud of mine, it was very thick and shiny. Now I just feel like I am hanging on to what I've got!
But there are worse things, obviously..........
Deb X


Geno 1a, F1, tx naive, had it 35 yrs.
Started Cipla HepcvirL on 12/01/16
Starting VL 490,000
At 16 days in <15
4 week results: UND
8 week results: UND
5 weeks EOT alt 25
SVR 15 - Not Detected
6 months EOT - Not Detected
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6 years 6 months ago #8110

Debs yes this is really such a tiny thing but when I consider the things that hold me together as a person and my sense of self - I don't believe that it is just vanity but more a feeling of holding on! x


gt 1a VL 6m
F2/3 FibroScan - 9KPa in 2011 and 7KPa in 2015
sof/dac 10 December for 12 weeks
pre tx alt 85 ast 51
4 wk alt 34 ast 31 UND <35
8 wk alt 29 ast 32 UND <15
12wk alt 25 ast 25 EOT 3.3.16
SVR24 UND KPa5.3 F0 in normal range
I am well
.forever grateful to fixhepc
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6 years 6 months ago #8111

I agree Pat, not just vanity, impacts on self esteem X #flower


Geno 1a, F1, tx naive, had it 35 yrs.
Started Cipla HepcvirL on 12/01/16
Starting VL 490,000
At 16 days in <15
4 week results: UND
8 week results: UND
5 weeks EOT alt 25
SVR 15 - Not Detected
6 months EOT - Not Detected
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6 years 6 months ago #8124

You're right. It was overkill. The patient had failed treatment twice so this was our last chance and we had to make it count.
We thought SAMe dosing would be critical because if you give huge doses of something that oxidises, during a situation of high oxidative stress, it could become pro-oxidant and under normal circumstances it would be recycled.. So I contacted Dr Paul Steir who I'd worked with in the past. He did some of the first SAMe studies at UCLA. He said....

"I had the idea of doing a pilot study with HCV and SAMe to see if shifting the transmethylation pathway towards producing glutethion would have a positive impact on liver repair and the ability to limit tissue damage from the virus, but I never really got it off the ground."

We chose 1600mg because that's the dose used in one small study we found. Next we asked George who I had just discovered at a forum that had given him his own section to keep him out of the way because nobody understood him and he said.....

"SAMe is just the active form of methionine. But methionine cannot convert to cysteine (hence glutathione) without going through SAMe. Roughly 50% of methionine goes into SAMe (the rest into protein). folic acid and B12 or betaine recycle methionine/SAMe, while B6 converts to cysteine. NAC is the best way to elevate cysteine directly. Now, glycine is a byproduct of the methylation of folic acid/folate (same thing); so a healthy methylation cycle using folate-B12 (rather than betaine) should supply all the glycine you need. But glycine is a common amino acid in any case, as is glutamate/glutamic acid (same thing); cysteine is the rate-limiting one because it is rare.
The other way to elevate glutathione is to recycle it directly, either enzymatically (B2, selenium, niacinamide) or with some special antioxidants - ALA, OPCs, astaxanthin, melatonin. Another way is to spare it by quenching free radicals before they oxidise PUFAs - vitamin E and OPCs will do this; vitamin E at doses of at least 800iu, Grape Seed Extract at 200-600mg daily in 2-3 doses. But don't take GSE with riibavirin as it can theoretically interfere with absorption in gut (leave a 2-3 hour gap). The beauty of OPCs/GSE is that it definitely recycles vitamin C, very noticably reducing the requirement. All antioxidants help methylation, because B12 is easily oxidized and oxidative stress is a major interference with the methylation cycle.
One additional vitamin I would consider using is niacinamide (not niacin). Firstly, recycling glutathione depends on NADH and supplementing niacinamide is one way of elevating glutathione. It is hepatoprotective for this reason (but because B3 is a methyl acceptor, it is not safe for people with very poor methylation- it may then compete with choline synthesis, elevating AST/ALT. But this only happens to 1.8% of people supplementing high-dose B3 without other supplements or dietary changes. In thousands of patients supplementing high-dose B3 as part of a multi-supplement regime including methylation factors there has never ben a case of elevated enzymes.
But the main reason to supplement niacinamide with interferon has to do with the way that interferon degrades tryptophan to try to make extra NAD(H). This pathway is wasteful of tryptophan (it takes 60mg tryptophan to make 1mg b3) and results in the depression caused by interferon, as well as diarrhea and skin problems. Supplementing 1.5g niacinamide daily elevated tryptophan by 40% in HIV patients, one of many groups suffering the same tryptophan catabolism that interferon causes. If B6 is deficient the tryptophan-B3 pathway becomes a black hole. I have supplemented 2g niacinamide daily for 3 months now without problems, I sleep well, feel "healthy" and my moods are more stable than ever. SAMe makes me anxious and methionine can make me hypomanic, there is a fine balance between methyl donors and methyl acceptors - methyl donors synthesis adrenaline and dopamine, if there are inadequate methyl acceptors (mainly B3 but also B1) the synthesis of stimulant neurotransmitters can be excessive - especially if tryptophan is being catabolised, because serotonin should be in balance with dopamine.
Look up zinc and interferon - zinc definitely increases SVR.
I will get back to you later with more on this. You seem to be on the right track."

George is a musician. He has no medical background. So we became a team. I mean who needs a medical background when you have wild theories, right?
PP

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