Home Forums Main Forum Experts Corner Drug Interactions & Information Taurine Daclatasvir and Treatment Failure

  • This topic has 13 replies, 9 voices, and was last updated 8 years ago by avatar876.jpegGaj.
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  • #11993
    dope-on-a-rope.jpgDr James
    • Guardian Angel
    • ★★★★★
    @fixhepc

    So as you probably know I’m keeping an eye on everyone’s progress and for the vast majority (as in 96.2% to be exact) we see HCV RNA http://www.hep-druginteractions.org/checker

    Now her supplement - a body building energy potion taken daily and containing:

    • Taurine
    • Caffeine
    • Green tea extract
    • Green coffee extract
    • And the list went on…
    • So I Google for taurine and find and article called Taurine modulates induction of cytochrome P450 3A4 mRNA by rifampicin in the HepG2 cell line.

      In plain english this says taurine increases the levels of the enzyme CYP3A4 that removes daclatasvir from your system – in other words it’s like you’re taking a 1/2 dose, or maybe even a 1/4 dose.

      Now taurine may not be the only cause each and every “… extract” will contain dozens of chemicals, all of which could induce or inhibit CYP3A4

      So here is my advice:

      Do not take random supplements in the hope they may help. They may, they may not – nobody knows and these drugs work without special care. If you want to take extras Vit D and Vit B12 have evidence and there is a long discussion on the forums about many others.

      And remember that Red Bull, V, Monster and other “Energy” drinks all contain taurine

      Here’s more about taurine if you’re interested

      http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/expert-answers/taurine/faq-20058177


      YMMV

    #12050
    Avatar photosonix
    • Guardian Angel
    • ★★★★★
    @sonix

    Very interesting. It’s great to see information of possible interactions, both positive and negative, come to light. We’ve all been sailing in mostly dark, uncharted waters without navigation lights and this is invaluable for future patients.
    Personally I have continued to take Jeunesse AM/PM Essentials which I started several months before treatment and made a noticeable improvement to my feeling of well being, although I take less than 1/2 the recommended dose (it’s quite expensive). It contains small amounts of taurine and green tea extract among dozens of other things. I was DET <15 at 4 weeks.


    M 61yo HCV+ ~ 30 yrs Gt1a F2 VL 223,000 ALT 54 AST 42 Tx start Sof/Dac 17Dec15.
    SVR4 at 7Apr16 ALT 22 AST 22
    SVR12 at 9Jun16 ALT 23 AST 25
    Melbourne, Australia

    #12056
    Johnboy
    • Topics: 16
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    • Guardian Angel
    • ★★★★★
    @johnboy

    Green tea extract is very bad for the liver. A Perth man was recently at death’s door from it and he needed a new liver. They had to give him one that was infected with HBV.

    I suppose in very small amounts it might be OK but I wouldn’t try it.


    G1 58yo F1 54,000 viral load Relapser 2003/4 Sof/Dac started 21/9/2015

    #12064
    Avatar photosonix
    • Guardian Angel
    • ★★★★★
    @sonix
    Johnboy wrote:

    Green tea extract is very bad for the liver. A Perth man was recently at death’s door from it and he needed a new liver. They had to give him one that was infected with HBV.

    This is the story you mentioned –
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-14/man-faced-death-after-taking-popular-weight-loss-product/7162378

    Green tea extract was mentioned as the probable cause although doctors were uncertain. I would guess it was present in large quantities in the “weight-loss product purchased online”.

    With a little more searching I found vastly conflicting reports, from a girl who got very sick from 3 cups of green tea a day:
    http://www.techtimes.com/articles/88334/20150927/teen-who-drank-too-much-green-tea-develops-hepatitis-and-turns-yellow-because-of-liver-damage.htm

    to a report that it helps fatty liver:
    http://www.liversupport.com/green-tea-promotes-a-lean-liver/
    :unsure: :blink:


    M 61yo HCV+ ~ 30 yrs Gt1a F2 VL 223,000 ALT 54 AST 42 Tx start Sof/Dac 17Dec15.
    SVR4 at 7Apr16 ALT 22 AST 22
    SVR12 at 9Jun16 ALT 23 AST 25
    Melbourne, Australia

    #12067
    Avatar photoflyingfox66
    • Guardian Angel
    • ★★★★★
    @flyingfox66

    Extracts are never reliable really. Herbs I’m happy taking in large amounts when fresh or dried become toxic to me when in extract form. I’ve tried several times and its always the same. I take extracts , even from trusted sources and I get liverish headaches and infernal itching.
    Its so predictable now I stay well clear of them. I wonder if it will be the same after treatment. I do think you can mistakenly overstimulate your immune system when you have hep and suffer for it.


    F49HepC25ysGT1a
    mild”

    #12104
    Avatar photodointime
    • Guardian Angel
    • ★★★★★
    @dointime

    I do think you can mistakenly overstimulate your immune system when you have hep and suffer for it.

    Liver fibrosis is not directly caused by the hepC virus. It is caused by inflammation set up by the immune system in response to the virus. So paradoxically, your Viral Load number bears no direct relationship to the progression of your liver damage, and trying to ramp up your immune response could be counter-productive.

    A much better approach to protecting your liver (while not on tx) is the use of natural anti-inflammatories, for example like cooking with turmeric.

    dt

    #12124
    Avatar photoflyingfox66
    • Guardian Angel
    • ★★★★★
    @flyingfox66

    Yes DT thats what I found out the hard way.
    In the end it was the Turmeric that won the day.
    But I also realised that whole herbs are whole for a reason, and that extracts are almost always inferior.
    Human beings always meddle with things too much.
    Whatever I’ve done to myself it hasn’t been too detrimental to my liver. I had a fibroscan yesterday…4.7kpA.
    Not too bad after probably thirty years with this virus and an extremely misspent youth.


    F49HepC25ysGT1a
    mild”

    #12125
    Tommy
    • Guardian Angel
    • ★★★★★
    @tommy
    flyingfox66 wrote:

    Yes DT thats what I found out the hard way.
    In the end it was the Turmeric that won the day.
    But I also realised that whole herbs are whole for a reason, and that extracts are almost always inferior.
    Human beings always meddle with things too much.
    Whatever I’ve done to myself it hasn’t been too detrimental to my liver. I had a fibroscan yesterday…4.7kpA.
    Not too bad after probably thirty years with this virus and an extremely misspent youth.

    Research shows the complete opposite. Especially when it comes to Tumeric. The good parts (curumin) is not absorpable and they need to make a extract to get some absorption. Extracts are mostly always better for absorption and to get the most precise part of the plant or herb.


    Genotype 1A
    ALT 473
    AST 226
    Virus Load 3,119,030
    Results as of May-2016
    5 week viral load/undetected as of 12/02/2016
    Liver Biopsy Results from Feb 2013
    Portal/Periportal chronic inflammation and mild interface hepatitis (Grade 2)
    Focal Lobular chronic inflammation (Grade 1)
    Portal/Periportal fibrosis (stage 1-2 trichrome and reticulin stains utilized)
    Negative Iron stains.

    #12127
    Avatar photoflyingfox66
    • Guardian Angel
    • ★★★★★
    @flyingfox66

    Curcurmin extracts have been linked to liver failure too.
    If the curcurmin in turmeric wasn’t bioavailable in the mixture I make, it would have all the amazing symptom relief that it does.
    Perhaps people just don’t know how to prepare it.
    Plants are synergistic medicine…a recipe of parts, not a single part that can be drilled down and “isolated”.
    Its such a masculinist fallacy :D
    I’ll leave it at that though cos this is seriously off topic.


    F49HepC25ysGT1a
    mild”

    #12128
    Tommy
    • Guardian Angel
    • ★★★★★
    @tommy
    flyingfox66 wrote:

    Curcurmin extracts have been linked to liver failure too.
    If the curcurmin in turmeric wasn’t bioavailable in the mixture I make, it would have all the amazing symptom relief that it does.
    Perhaps people just don’t know how to prepare it.
    Plants are synergistic medicine…a recipe of parts, not a single part that can be drilled down and “isolated”.
    Its such a masculinist fallacy :D
    I’ll leave it at that though cos this is seriously off topic.

    Masculinist fallacy? I guess we will just disagree then. Some know better then others and will always have different opinions. For the massess out there don’t believe everything you read and do RESEARCH. Real research and not sites like Doctor Mercola or Mike Adams (Health Ranger)etc.


    Genotype 1A
    ALT 473
    AST 226
    Virus Load 3,119,030
    Results as of May-2016
    5 week viral load/undetected as of 12/02/2016
    Liver Biopsy Results from Feb 2013
    Portal/Periportal chronic inflammation and mild interface hepatitis (Grade 2)
    Focal Lobular chronic inflammation (Grade 1)
    Portal/Periportal fibrosis (stage 1-2 trichrome and reticulin stains utilized)
    Negative Iron stains.

    #12180
    Avatar photodointime
    • Guardian Angel
    • ★★★★★
    @dointime

    Masculinist fallacy?

    No, that would be Patronizing Masculinist Fallacy.
    dt

    #12183
    Avatar photokenbasman
    • Guardian Angel
    • ★★★★★
    @kenbasman
    dointime wrote:

    Masculinist fallacy?

    Patronizing Masculinist Fallacy.
    dt

    ….cute!


    HCV 35 yrs G1a F3 Tx naive
    started Lesovir-C 15/12/2015
    pre tx: VL 5,250,000 ALT 374 AST 208
    FIBROSCORE 10.4

    4 weeks tx ALT 29/ AST 33. VL < 12 UI/mL 8 weeks tx ALT 29/ AST 34. VL UND 4 weeks after tx UND. SVR4. ALT 24/AST 18

    #24274
    han
    • Topics: 0
    • Replies: 1
    • Total: 1
    • Novice
    @han

    I don;t know why taurine treatment was failure.
    Taurine Function:maintain the brain function and accelerate the development of baby and children’s brain, accelerate the growth of the nervous system, accelerate the digestion of fat and plays a role in gall bile metabolization, protect the body’s cardiovascular system.

    #24275
    avatar876.jpegGaj
    • Guardian Angel
    • ★★★★★
    @gaj

    Hi Han,

    Please see Dr Freeman’s explanation in the first post of this thread. In summary, taurine is an essential compound as you say but it is also an inducer of the CYP3a4 enzyme which is what metabolises Daclatasvir. That means that increased levels of taurine increase the rate at which Daclatasvir is removed from our bodies therefore reducing its effectiveness. So while we need taurine to survive and it is a natural part of our diets, we should not add extra via supplements or energy drinks during treatments that contain Daclatasvir. An example where ‘more’ doesn’t necessarily equal ‘better’.

    Bristol-Myers Squibb who make and license Daclatasvir have recognised this is a potential issue per below quote and link.

    In addition to herbal and dietary supplements which may increase DCV exposure via CYP3A4 inhibition, others may induce or modulate the induction of CYP3A4 and thus potentially reduce the antiviral activity of DCV. Such extracts include St. John’s wort (Hypericum perforatum; a strong inducer of CYP3A4 and thus contraindicated for concomitant use with DCV) [36] and taurine (commonly found in body-building supplements and energy drinks) [38].

    http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs12325-016-0407-5


    G3a since ’78 – Dx ’12 – F4 (2xHCC)
    24wk Tx – PEG/Riba/Dac 2013 relapsed
    24wk Tx – Generic Sof/Dac/Riba 2015/16 relapsed
    16wk Tx – 12/01/17 -> 03/05/17 NS3/NS5a + Generic Sof
    SVR7 – 22/06/17 UND
    SRV12 – 27/07/17 UND
    SVR24 – 26/10/17 UND
    :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:

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